Episode 15:
Michelle Mitchell

Mackenzie: (00:00)
Welcome to the Screen Sanity podcast. I’m your host Mackenzie Forester, one of the co-founders of Screen Sanity, where we help families raise happy and healthy kids in a world that’s increasingly digital. We’ve had hundreds of conversations with parents everywhere who share that the number one battleground in their homes is technology. And while we’ve learned there’s no easy button when it comes to parenting today’s kids, there’s also an unbelievable movement of parents who are stepping into the arena and fighting for their kids’ hearts. In each episode, our guests will help us dive into some of the tensions families are facing, and walk us through some of the conversations you’ll want to have to prepare your kids for the road ahead. Welcome to Screen Sanity.

Mackenzie: (00:48)
Hey everyone. Today we’re talking to Award-winning parenting educator, Michelle Mitchell. Her recent book, Tweens is a staple on every parent’s bookshelf, and we’re simply so excited that she’s right here in Brisbane and our first-ever podcast guest from Australia. In Tweens, she explains that this is the most rapid period of development since toddlerhood, and it’s during this time before the pressure of high school, you have a window of opportunity that can change the trajectory of adolescence and beyond. So it is so great to have you here today, and we have been big, big fans at Screen Sanity. Your words just ring so true. And we love having another voice working for our kids. We are so honoured to be part of this community.

Michelle: (01:29)
Mackenzie, I am thrilled to be here and I am a big fan of Screen Sanity as well, so thank you so much for having me.

Mackenzie: (01:37)
Okay. As you know, at Screen Sanity, we deal with a lot of nitty-gritty stuff involving managing the online world. First things first, we would love to just hear your general thoughts on technology.

Michelle: (01:49)
Well, whenever the decision makers in any industry don’t take the needs of the smallest and most vulnerable as their first priority, then we will always have issues. And that’s exactly what’s happened with technology. Our kids have been the casualty. But the good news is there is a swell of big protective love rising to meet the needs of our kids. Right now, they’re rising to meet and lead our kids forward, and our kids deserve a childhood that’s untampered with, and I’m going to use the words of Winston Churchill right now. He said, “in every age, there comes a time where leaders rise to meet the needs of that generation”. And we can swap out the word ‘leader’ with ‘parents’ or ‘professionals’. But that’s what I’m seeing everywhere I go, it’s like we are rising to put our love and guardrails around these kids, and that’s what every generation has needed to get safely through to adulthood.

Mackenzie: (02:49)
That is absolutely so encouraging because I think every single parent wants to hear that right now because we’re all together in this feeling of, oh my gosh, what is happening? Especially with the mainstream media lately, even picking up on this, all of a sudden everyone’s trying to kind of pivot and rethink their relationship with technology, which is great, but it’s also really, really overwhelming for us. So now that this conversation is becoming a little bit common, in your book Tweens, you describe technology as the underage Valium and how it can suppress these big strong emotions. You talk about the dopamine flood that this generation is experiencing. Can you share with us your overall thoughts on the current state of adolescence and how technology is affecting it?

Michelle: (03:38)
Yes. I think any parent of a teenager is looking at their kids going, “this is not good for them”. The first thing they do when they’re feeling overwhelmed is go straight to their phones. And we know that Valium, if we are taking that example, is great when prescribed appropriately in very moderate doses. But when overused, what it does is just stop us from using really great coping strategies that are going to actually strengthen and help our lives. And that’s what happens with our kids when the first thing they do is go to their phones. It’s actually blocking out their ability to use and strengthen every other coping strategy that is going to strengthen their lives. And I don’t think I’m saying anything new to parents of teenagers, they know exactly what’s happening and that’s why they’re so concerned. The concern is real and it’s not anyone’s fault. I think parents feel a great sense of guilt at the moment when they’re seeing their kids glued to their phones. They shouldn’t blame themselves. We need to have a great sense of compassion for the situation we are in, but we also need to take responsibility for the health and wellbeing of our kids going forward.

Mackenzie: (04:45)
Absolutely. It’s so true. So teenagers versus tweens, what do you recommend doing for people with kids more in this tween age group to hopefully get on a bit of a front foot, you know, with some of this stuff that’s coming our way? So at Screen Sanity, we go through our wonderful workshop and at the end we have parents wondering like, okay, what do I do first? What can I do right now, like tomorrow? So can you share with us some small steps that can make huge changes in our child’s experiences? We love to share those and give parents the top five things they can activate as soon as possible to help manage this big world of technology.

Michelle: (05:31)
Absolutely. And now is the time to get in. If you’ve got an eight to 12-year-old, this is your window of opportunity right now before the full pressure of teenage years hit. You’ve got all the power and you need to use that power for your child’s good. And I think in primary school, there’s no real reason why kids need to be on their phones. You know, there’s no reason why they need to have those devices with them in a portable way. We can hold off. And great programs like ‘Wait Mate’ are perfect right now for parents to be able to latch onto and stand together so kids can just have a more untampered-with childhood. So if we are going go top five tips, let’s see what we can come up with, can we? Alright. So the first thing I would say is realize that what we model is going to be a template for our kids and we are caught up in this rat race ourselves.

Michelle: (06:25)
So we’ve gotta recognise that if our kids are watching us, that’s ultimately going to be the blueprint that they follow. The second thing is to delay as long as possible. I think the research is really clear, and I’m not just talking about delaying social media. So many parents of tweens come to me and they say, Michelle, I’m winning. My kid doesn’t have TikTok, but they forget that their kid’s scrolling through YouTube for an hour every night and they’re so much on YouTube that their kid’s just not old enough to process. And there are so many rabbit holes that they can go down on YouTube. So we’ve gotta really recognise that it’s not just social media. And I’d say if we can delay our kids’ use of unsupervised screen time and also I think portable devices, is something we can delay as well.

Michelle: (07:17)
The third thing I would say is to make our agreements with our kids, when it comes to tech, crystal clear. I think even between sometimes us and our partners, if you’ve got husband, wife, partner, any trusted adults that are taking care of your kids, we’ve got to be on the same page. Our kids can very easily divide and conquer in this area. And those agreements that we have in our home need to be solid, crystal clear, and watertight on our fridge. And of course there’s going to be times when we stray from them, but we need to have something to come back to, and be able to parent from. Maybe a fourth one that I would say is to educate. Yes. But recognise that our kids’ cognitive ability to implement that without our supervision can be limited during the tween stage. So we can talk to our kids about rude photos or our interpretation of pornography or sexy photos and we can try and armor our kids up for this online world.

Michelle: (08:18)
But the reality is, is they’re still children. And so if we are going to actually give our kids access to technology in an unsupervised way, we’re actually putting them in waters that they’re probably not capable of navigating on their own. And we have to be honest about that. The fifth one I’d say is this, we can’t really eliminate the risk, but we can reduce it significantly by things like; keeping it out of their bedrooms and bathrooms. You know, the research is pretty clear about that. There’s some great research that talked about the online streaming incidents that happened. In child safety incidents’. And Susan McLean really brought this to my attention, but 98% of the abuse that happened, over 2000 cases actually, happened in bedrooms and bathrooms when an adult was not present. And if that is not enough of a warning for parents, I don’t know what is, so we can’t completely reduce these risks, but we can really take note of things like that and make sure technology is out of bedrooms and bathrooms even with our older kids.

Mackenzie: (09:29)
That is an incredible list. And so incredibly helpful. And if we can all just take some time for ourselves and afford ourselves the time to think about each one of those items and how we can apply it in our own home, I mean that’s huge. We are setting ourselves up for success. Having those takeaways. Where to start? We definitely want to unpack some of this. So let’s talk about portable devices. First things first.

Michelle: (09:59)
Okay. The reason I brought up the term portable devices is because I feel like every time a child has a device that can travel with them, it means that they never are away from technology. So you might have a fixed computer in a home, but the moment a child gets an iPhone that travels with them, an iPad that travels with them, then they have technology traveling in their back pocket constantly. So when you leave the house, their iPhone or their iPad travels with them when they move around the house, that iPhone or that iPad travels with them. So a portable device then becomes a part of them constantly. And so technology’s not a segment of their life, it is their life.

Mackenzie: (10:46)
Absolutely. You’re not just changing your home ecosystem, you’re just changing the ecosystem of the whole way your family operates.

Michelle: (10:53)
And new energy. Yes.

Mackenzie: (10:55)
Absolutely. And I love it because it’s something, it’s a pretty easy action. I mean easier said than done if you’ve already inserted that, but to simply try to eliminate using portable devices is definitely step one for a lot of families, I would say.

Michelle: (11:11)
Well you could say the iPad lives in this particular room. Full stop. Rather than it traveling around the whole house with a child. Now you can have different rules for an adult because you are an adult, but when it comes to say a 10-year-old, you can have different rules for them. So you can have a playroom, a space, an open area where they are visible to you where that device lives.

Mackenzie: (11:36)
Absolutely. And then that picks up on agreements, which you just spoke about and how important that is. Just that firm agreement that you make with your child and when it comes to technology. Do you like the kids to have some input in that decision-making process? Because I know with other areas of parenting that can be really helpful, but I assume with technology that’s a little bit harder.

Michelle: (11:58)
No, I love it. I love saying to a 10-year-old, how long do you think that you should have on gaming every day? And the answers you get are incredibly insightful because it gives you insights into what’s going on inside of their mind, what their perception is. Of what their friends do, because at 10 you go to school and you chat about how much time you are allowed on technology. “So I was up till 10 o’clock last night”… And it’s so funny when you hear boys, you know, sometimes telling their mates what they’re allowed to do online and they believe each other, you know, so parents are up against this at their homes as well. So when it comes to contracts, or tech agreements, I think the most important thing, first of all is for the adults to agree. And I think even between two adults, it’s unbelievable how different we can have opinions about technology and what we think is fair and right with our kids.

Michelle: (12:58)
So I think that’s the first conversation. And then the next conversation is actually understanding what’s going on inside of our kids’ head, what they think is right and fair. And they are going to be comparing it to their friends and what they believe their friends are doing. And so getting them to write down that list, and us to write down that list. And as our kids get older, can I say this, whatever differences of opinions that you have when technology is in your home and whatever challenges that you have, if you can try and make those challenges shared problems on the table. Okay, these are the challenges you’re having, this is the issue for you. And this is the issue for me. We’ve both got the issue so then we both have to come up with the solution. And I can give you an example of that. I mean, kids can be glued to their phone. The issue for them is that they’re constantly stressed. And they’re constantly feeling like they have to solve their friends’ problems.

Mackenzie: (13:57)
And even if they’re not on the phone in that minute, it just is heartbreaking to know that they’re walking around every day carrying that anxiety of how they’re going to respond to that text message, or what they need to put on their social media, or where their friends are. So yeah, from what I’m seeing, it’s kind of this two-pronged thing where it’s actually physically holding, you know, these devices in their hand, but also just the heaviness of it that they’re just carrying around every minute of every day.

Michelle: (14:25)
That’s exactly right. And then our problem is I can’t spend any time with you. And I can’t connect with you and I love you so dearly kid, but this phone is getting between me and my relationship with you and I don’t like seeing you stressed like that. So you’ve got the problem and I’ve got this problem, we’ve got it together. Come up with a solution. And so our language becomes so important the older that they get. Shared problems, shared solutions really becomes important. And that’s not that much different than creating shared contracts.

Mackenzie: (14:57)
Absolutely. I think that the end goal is to just be that person for your kid, even if they have one of these really, really nasty things happen to them online. Hopefully, by setting things up early, they have the confidence to be able to come to you if they need help. You know, getting out of a bad situation. Or at least just being there for them when these problems arise. Okay. Another thing to dive into a little bit is just tables and bedtimes. We have a section is Screen Sanity on this subject. And it’s again, another really tangible concept that we think families can employ, which is just not having those devices. We like to include tables because even if it’s not a gourmet, fancy organic dinner. Just a simple family pizza night without the devices is time for a family to connect and be together. And it doesn’t have to be every night of the week, but, you know, we just love that idea of whenever possible do it and leave the phones behind. And then bedrooms, we also love to give that as a first action item for parents because we know impulse levels are down during that time. And sadly, even though they’re under our own roof, they’re in a different world when they’re on their devices. That’s where unfortunately some of the worst stuff is happening.

Michelle: (16:20)
It sounds so simple, doesn’t it? You know, tables and bedtime like sounds so easy. But when you’ve like a 16-year-old that’s handing in their phone, taking the sim card out of the back of it and has bought a secondhand phone from school for five bucks and put the sim card in that second phone and is using it all night without your knowledge. You know, like kids are really savvy and then you’ve got a 10-year-old who you’re going, I don’t want that to happen to them. So you’re being really hard on the 10-year-old and then you’re trying to manage the 16-year-old. This is complicated stuff in homes. And parents always ask me this question, how much is too much? I tell you, how much is too much the moment it’s getting between you and your relationship with your kid.

Michelle: (17:03)
That’s how much is too much. And we need to make these sacred places in our homes just as a baseline. They’re just baseline. And the earlier we can start the better. What’s tricky is when it’s gotten out of hand, the horse has bolted and we’re trying to wind it back. And so in those instances, I say to families, you’ve just got to be transparent and honest and awfully authentic with your kids. So you sit down and go, “Hey, I’ve stuffed up a bit here. Things are out of control. Like we’ve all got our heads in our phones, we’re not spending time together, none of us are happy. So I’ve got to be the big person here and I’ve got to make some tough decisions that you are not going to be happy with, and I’ve got to wind some things back. So as from Friday, so I’m giving you two days notice. These are some small changes that we’re gonna make.”

Michelle: (17:54)
And I had this exact conversation with a mum two days ago. She had gone through a period of 18 months where her husband had had an illness. Screens had gotten out of hand because her kids had honestly needed more time on them because she hadn’t been around the way she had wanted to. But she said, now it’s time for Mama to come back and I need to make some changes. She needed to get the phone out of her son’s room at night. Her son had all his sleep apps on that phone. She borrowed a phone from her brother, a secondhand phone. She was going to the phone shop to make sure the sleep apps were on that phone. And he was able to text her at night because that’s what he was currently doing. And from Friday things were changing. And I was like, you know what? Small steps, fist pump, well done. And then she was going to tackle the rest of it in the weeks to come. But that was her one first move. And I thought, you know what? Good on you mum. You know, and her kids will respect her for it. They really will.

Mackenzie: (19:04)
Absolutely. Oh, and thank you for giving us that exact conversation because I hope that a lot of the listeners, including myself, were taking notes on how to say it exactly like that to their family. I hope that we can all have the encouragement to not be afraid to just step in and be the parent that you want to be.

Michelle: (19:24)
And you know what? Kids have always responded to compassionate leadership. I have never in my career known a child who is drowning at sea, who has not wanted a big person to come and rescue them. And I have known so many young people who’ve got things going on behind the scenes on tech, and who have had me come into their lives at critical moments where no other adult has known what’s going on, sometimes 10 year olds who have whispered to me in my ear, “Ms. Mitchell, I think I’ve got a pornography addiction” at 10 years old. And I’ve had to say to them, can you tell me what that means? Because as a 10-year-old, I’m not exactly sure what, how they’re interpreting that and what they are actually meaning when they say that. But at that moment, what do they want? They want a big person to come in and be the leader who moves it forward. Now they don’t need me to get hard on them. They need me to rise and be that loving big presence around their life that comes on in and does my job.

Mackenzie: (20:31)
That is so powerful and great. And one of the things you talk about in Tweens is lighthouses. Which is other people in your children’s lives that can be there for them and add value. Because sometimes the parent-child relationship, you know, maybe they need a little bit more than that. So do you want to talk about lighthouses in general?

Michelle: (20:50)
We were never meant to do this parenting thing alone. And we’ve become so isolated. When I do parent nights at the moment and the Q and A section comes up, the first question that always comes up is something about technology. And it’s literally like someone just dropped a bomb in the room and everyone’s waiting for it to go off. It’s hilarious because everyone knows that there’s different opinions and everyone’s on different pages. And what we all desperately want is for us to all get united on this subject because the research is unanimous. But we’re all on different pages right now because we’ve done such a quick shift. And I think we have to first of all get compassionate for where we’re all at. And so we’re all waiting for the argument to break out and for everyone to point fingers at everyone else.

Michelle: (21:39)
And that is exactly what we don’t wanna do right now. The first thing we want to do is actually go, okay, we know how we got here. Now let’s wrap our arms around each other and do what’s best for our kids. And that starts with a conversation with each other going, how can I best support you? And how can you best support me? And what’s in the best interests of our children? And we can do this in car park, over the school fence. We can do this with our schools. And let me tell you, schools are right on board right now. And we can all do this simply by saying, let’s put our kids first.

Mackenzie: (22:18)
That’s so good. That is so encouraging. And that’s what we all need right now. So yeah, I love it. Let’s do this together. Michelle, can I just ask you a question about a really hot topic in the life of every tween parent, which is sleepovers? This is a tricky one right now. It’s huge.

Michelle: (22:37)
And I think it comes back to us being the parent and keeping our role as the parent. Whatever happens under your roof is your legal responsibility because everyone is at a different place with how they’re using tech in their home. I think the key is communication before kids get under your roof. And I think there has to be an element of compassion as well, because we know that some kids are very dependent on tech. So when they are under your roof, if your rules are, leave your tech at the front door and there is no tech under my roof, and we’re all going to leave our tech and that’s it. There is gonna be some kids that really struggle being away from tech for long periods of time. So I think this word ‘and’ has to come into play. We’ve go to be compassionate ‘and’ really lead strongly with the values and rules that are around our homes.

Michelle: (23:23)
What we’ve done in our home is when we’ve had my kids’ friends over, we really get quite regimented with the routine that we are going to do. We get very involved. So we make sure that it’s fun. It’s lively. That we’re intercepting and looking for moments where kids might be feeling anxious. Or there might be a bit of a hiccup, so things don’t go pear-shaped on them so they leave on a high. And if that means having shorter play dates, or not letting things drag out so long, that’s what we do.

Mackenzie: (23:58)
Great idea. And so what if you are the parent who’s got a pretty good handle on it, but you are sending your kids to the wild west for a sleepover. How do you suggest we approach this?

Michelle: (24:12)
It’s really difficult, isn’t it? Oh yeah.

Mackenzie: (24:14)
Is it that, is that just an opt-out? Like maybe that’s not a good choice? And this might be something that parents have always had to think about. Do I send my child to someone else’s home when they maybe watch a television show that we don’t watch in our home? Where they watch a horror movie and my kids don’t watch horror movies in our house. Where they’re exposed to maybe older siblings who smoke and that’s not something that they do at their house. There’s a whole range of scenarios. So if we can liken it to our childhood  but think about it in a different context, it will help parents make those decisions. And I think they are very personal decisions, but to put a child in a context and expect them to make those hard calls on their own under pressure is unrealistic.

Mackenzie: (25:05)
Well, let’s just talk about one of our favourite words, which is prevention. So we believe that prevention is paramount. If we want to see a change in our youth, within our families, and also within society at large. Really how can we set ourselves up for success in this world where we are so connected electronically?

Michelle: (25:27)
Let’s refer to Wayne Walton’s work because I think he’s incredible. He’s done a lot of work with gaming addictions, and his research really points to the fact that yes, it’s associated with impulsivity, but that’s not the full stop. It’s actually also very much associated with kids’ connectedness with home, but their feeling of belonging and feeling valued within their environment and like they have something to give. And if our kids’ basic needs are not met and they do not feel like they’re connected with their environments and that they’re contributing, then they are at higher risk for not only needing but becoming addicted to technology. So when we are talking about prevention, we’re talking about actually our child belonging and feeling connected to us and their environments. That’s my key message. It’s actually not about technology. It’s actually about our child connecting with the real world.

Mackenzie: (26:32)
I love that. There are so many examples I can think of even in my own house with that. And it’s really helpful to know that maybe it’s not a great choice to just turn on the TV or use iPads when you need to clean up after dinner. It sounds like that’s something that everybody should be a part of. So that’s one small moment. But I think that exactly what you just said can apply to a way of life. We don’t need to be one person in one room on this device, one person over here, two people on that couch on different devices. We’re all in this together. So wouldn’t it be so lovely to just get back to a bit of family life?

Michelle: (27:09)
So colleges around this country will tell you their number one client is girls in their twenties who have mastered their online profiles. They know how to get the likes and the followers. They know how to look perfect. But they are realising that those same skills do not transfer to their everyday lives. Tthey’re realising that they have been sold a lie. They have been sold the idea that if I can look good online, I am going to be happy and successful in the real world. And that has not happened. And so they are unpacking that false narrative in the four walls of clinics all around our country. And we want our kids to discover who they are in the real world. And that happens by them living life and going “there I am, there I am, I’m good at that”. I’m not okay with our kids leaving grade 12, having no idea of who they are and what they want to be. I want them to have some cues about the beautiful gift that they are to the world

Mackenzie: (28:18)
That is so awesome and speaks so true. And that’s why we are loving bringing Screen Sanity to schools because you don’t have to be a parenting expert to be a wisdom maker. And that’s what we are in this time where there’s a lot of unknowns. You know, we are the wisdom makers and it’s really up to us and this generation of us eighties and nineties children to try to figure out how to deal with this, and what we’re going to do about it, and how to change directions.

Michelle: (28:51)
Let’s make decisions based on the safety and the wellbeing of our kids right now, and let’s do it together.

Mackenzie: (28:59)
Thank you so much, Michelle. This has been absolutely great. And just thanks for reconfirming that it’s not about perfect parenting, it’s about authentic parenting and that our homes are sacred spaces and all of this wonderful dialogue. At Screen Sanity we have all read Tweens. It’s one of our favourite books. It’s on our recommended book list for everyone who goes to one of our workshops. Michelle is just the master of all of this. I would just love to encourage everybody to get their copy of Tweens because this book is awesome. So thank you so much for being here today. I wish we could talk to you for hours and hours longer, but we will try to do that another time. Thanks again.

Michelle: (29:39)
Thanks for having me.